the christ myth – (en)

THE CHRIST MYTH_Dugutigui
Shocking as it may seem to the general populace, the most enduring and profound controversy in the subject of Christianity is whether or not a person named Jesus Christ ever really existed!
I pull no punches, beating the adversary to a bloody pulp, and quite obviously deriving great pleasure from the pummeling I dole out. What follows, this war of words, it seems, is a battle the author takes most seriously in her righteous quest to undo 2000 years of mental slavery inflicted upon humankind by the same sort of manipulators that have given us such popular mythologies as the Gulf War, Barbie and the Marlboro Man.
THE CHRIST MYTH_1_Dugutigui
From the beginning of the Christian era there have been in each generation many persons who refused to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and many others who, after being educated in that belief, rejected it in maturer years. Perhaps some of these doubted or disbelieved the whole story; but the question of actuality was not, formerly, a subject of discussion in pulpit and in print.
Napoleon I, in his conversations with Wieland, expressed his disbelief in the historical existence of Christ; but that declaration seems to have made but little impression upon his hearer, and was, apparently received without comment by later readers of the statement, Napoleon not being considered an authority in such matters, although his logical faculty and mathematical genius were indisputable.
At present this question is vital and imperative. It lies at the basis of the whole structure of Biblical criticism, and the answer lurks between the lines in all the reports of modern investigation.
My own doubts were first awakened as far back as the year 1875, being the result of studies in a department of Christian doctrine having no connection with dogmas concerning the identity of Christ. At that time I did not know that his “historical existence” had been denied, although I had already, after a painful mental conflict, given up my early belief in the Trinitarian creed. Those persons who have not always regarded Christ as a mere man cannot imagine the shock experienced by a believer in his divinity when that faith gives way. Few have believed so firmly and entirely as I; not many, I trust, have suffered so intensely in renouncing that belief; and it is because I have found joy and peace in disbelieving, that I mention my personal experience in the hope of making the way easier for other souls tormented by doubt and goaded by the compelling power of Truth to be honest with themselves even at the sacrifice of what were once vital convictions, but which, through wider knowledge, have lost their meaning and influence.
Belief in Jesus, when analyzed, proves to be largely sentimental, and differs in kind and degree with the disposition of the individual….
The idea of a connecting link between Divinity and Man – a mediator – is common to all primitive cults, as is also the idea of a third Influence, a pervading Spirit, acting in harmony with the other two sources of Eternal Being. The whole idea is the conception of an age when the Universe was supposed to be governed by a God, or by gods, capable of being propitiated by sacrifices and moved by prayers; consequently it no longer applies to an age which has discovered that the Universe is governed by immutable law.
Among the ancient Egyptians the Sun, the earth fructified by the sun, and the young, rising sun, constituted the Divine Family, as represented by Osiris, Isis and Horus.
Osiris, the sun, disappearing every night and paling every winter, is raised every morning and every spring as Horus, who is at once the Son of God and God himself. Krishna among the East Indians; Bel among the Babylonians; Adonis, Hercules, Bacchus, among the Greeks, illustrate in like manner the changes of the seasons and personify the sovereignty of the Sun.
The same idea, that of a divine Son, born of the union of the Sun and the Earth, God and a woman, runs through all the myths which have gradually been evolved out of the spiritual questionings of man.
The idea of a suffering God atoning by his death for the sins of men, descending into the abodes of darkness and rising again to bring life and immortality to light, is found in the oldest records of the human race in every part of the world. It is originally in all cases a personification of the Sun…
Extinct races show the cross upon the ruins of their temples: the Virgin Mother and the Divine Child sanctified the worship of primitive Peru; and in Siam, ages before the Christian era, the Son of God was incarnated for the salvation of mankind…
The Hebrews, after many experiments with the cults of neighboring nations and victorious enemies, developed finally a strict monotheistic religion, to which they have ever since adhered.
The Hebrew Scriptures which form the basis of the Jewish and Christian faiths have been proved to be a mass of mingled history and fable, largely borrowed from the records of older nations, and showing no evidence of superhuman wisdom in the varied concepts.
Christ and the Gospels
There is no mention of Jesus in contemporary literature, either Jewish or Pagan. Authentic history is absolutely silent as to such a personality. The only record of his supposed life on earth is found in the Gospels of the New Testament, in certain epistles ascribed to Paul, in certain statements by the earliest “Fathers” of the Christian church, in certain legends contained in the miscellaneous portions of the Jewish Talmud, and in a very few allusions by Pagan writers. But not one of these sources is contemporary with the career of Jesus….
Christians are taught that the four Gospels were written by the four disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, whereas those compositions were not known to the early Christians nearly two hundred years after the supposed events which they record.
If those disciples ever really existed they were certainly not alive at that time, and there is no proof that they left any writings….
Recent discoveries seem to confirm the suggestion that nascent Christianity took is rise from the ferment of Oriental and Grecian ideas then beginning to be mingled with Jewish beliefs through the rapidly increasing intercourse between the far East and the shores of the Mediterranean, the intellectual impulse of which movement centered at Alexandria and spread as far as Rome….
Doctrine of Divine Paternity
Every year, at Christmas, this fable [of Immaculate Conception] is dinned into the ears of the Christian world…
But, nowadays, both clergy and laity must know that the same distinction has been claimed for many persons, mythical and real; that the oldest religions are based upon exactly such an origin; that the deified founders of Oriental faiths were begotten by a god and conceived by a virgin …
Other Virgin-Born Saviors
Although there were so many examples of supernatural birth to serve as a pattern for the fable of Jesus, still various circumstances in the story of his life seem to suggest particular instances as the chief sources of the imaginary details.
These instances are Krishna, Mithra, and Buddha….
The Magi belong to the story of Mithra, a deity of the ancient Persians, originally a personification of the sun.
He was said to have been born of a virgin in a cave, on the twenty-fifth of December, an allegorical representation of the emergence of the sun from the darkness of the winter solstice. At the period of the composition of the Gospels the cult of Mithra was familiar to the Western nations, and had long been established in Rome.
The Roman catacombs contained a picture of the Virgin seated holding the infant Mithra on her lap, and before them three men in Persian dress are kneeling and offering gifts.
The Massacre of the Innocents is taken from the story of Krishna, the favorite deity of India, the eighth incarnation of Vishnu, and also a personification of the sun….
The introduction of the shepherds by Luke is also a reminiscence of Krishna. Immediately after Devaki, the sacred mother, had given birth to Krishna, her husband, Vasudeva, carried away the infant to a friendly shepherd named Nanda, whose wife, Yacoda, had just been delivered of a daughter, and the children were exchanged. Nanda and his wife were at that time in a village near Madura, whither they had gone to pay their taxes…
Vasudeva, on his way to them with the newborn Krishna, was obliged to cross a deep river, but the water was miraculously restrained so that it did not reach above his ankles, a legend which suggests the story of St. Christopher [“Christ-bearer”] carrying the Christ-child through the flood. The errand of Nanda and his wife serves to explain Luke’s assertion respecting the object of the journey of Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem, which is contradicted by historical fact….
Nanda and his wife carried the infant Krishna home with them, and he grew up among the shepherds. Luke’s account of the appearance to the shepherds of the angel and the heavenly host with their rapturous hymns of praise is also a reminiscence of Krishna, at whose birth there was great joy in heaven; flowers were thrown down to earth, and celestial music greeted the Incarnated One….
The character of these stories shows that they were older than the Christ-myth, and of native origin, whereas the Christian version betrays foreign and anachronistic features at every point….
The choice of the Redeemer’s birth-place can be traced to the same source. Luke mentions a stable as the refuge of the Virgin, and manger as the cradle of the new-born infant. There are pictures of Krishna lying in a manger surrounded by shepherds and shepherdesses, oxen and asses. But other early writers, including several of the Fathers, decided upon a cave as the true place, a decision exactly in accordance with the legend of Mithra, of a virgin, in a cave, on the 25th of December, symbolizing the renewed birth of the sun after the winter solstice….
Buddhistic Legends…
The mythical stories concerning Buddha resemble those relating to Krishna; indeed, there is a family likeness in the presiding deities of all races and all times, and those personifications go back to the Sun – ALL OF THEM!
Buddha’s mother was a virgin; Buddha was begotten through the power of the Highest; heaven and earth rejoiced at his birth and recognized in him the long-desired Savior. The wealth of Oriental imagination is lavished upon descriptions of the celestial joy which heralded that marvelous event and the terrestrial prosperity which accompanied the arrival of the Redeemer of the World….
Soon after Buddha’s birth the wisest and best men of the city went in a body to the king and proposed that the Infant should be carried to the Temple of the Gods in token gratitude for the blessing bestowed. The king accepted the suggestion; the city was adorned for a festival; crowds joined the procession; music filled the air; flowers fell from the sky; one hundred thousand deities drew the vehicles which carried the Divine Child; an earthquake announced the arrival at the Temple; the shower of blossoms was renewed; the images of the gods, even those of Indra and Brahma, descended from their places and hastened to welcome the Long-desired, and the magnificent ceremony ended with a hymn from the gods in praise of Buddha….
THE CHRIST MYTH_0_Dugutigui
The Temptation
The story of the Temptation, which, taken as an actual occurrence, is full of impossibilities and absurdities, might be regarded as an allegory, descriptive of the trials which the new sect had to undergo in its opposition to the practices of the world; but there is a probable way of accounting for this fable by comparing its details with those of similar trials and similar victories in the experiences of Zarathustra and of Buddha.
In both of these cases the devil appeared in person and offered the pleasures of sense and the gratification of all forms of ambition as the price of recognition of his sovereignty; in both cases he was repelled and finally banished by quotations from Holy Writ; in both cases the conquerors were afterwards refreshed and comforted through the ministry of angels….
Precocity, Prophecy, Celestial Rejoicing, Etc.
The story of Jesus being missed by his parents, who, after seeking, found him in the Temple sitting among the doctors and discussing with them has its parallel in a legend of Buddha, according to which he was one day lost in a forest, and being sought for by his father the king and a company of courtiers as found sitting under a tree surrounded by Rishis (the saints and angels of the Indian heaven), who had descended from the sky to sing his praises….
All such leaders are said to have been noted in childhood for their precocity. Buddha taught the gods wisdom while still in his mother’s womb; as soon as he was born he set his feet towards the four corners of the earth to show that his mission was to all the world; in school he confounded his teachers by his universal knowledge, and as a man he excelled all his contemporaries in physical accomplishments and intellectual acquirements….
The Beatitudes…
The Beatitude are, in their sentiments, a condensation of the wisdom of Oriental thinking and Grecian philosophers and Roman moralists; in their language they are almost word for word an echo of Buddha’s message when he announced himself as the savior of men. While Buddha was living in and near the city Radschagriha, his favorite resort was a neighboring mountain…which, on account of his sermon upon the seven conditions of salvation, was called “The Mount of the Seven Beatitudes.”…
Many Parallel Legends…
The Transfiguration finds a parallel in the light which streamed from Buddha’s body as he lay dying under a tree…
But a still more striking similarity is found in the Transfiguration of Krishna before his beloved disciple Arjuna [John], as related in the Bhagavad-Gita.
The Gospel of Buddha contains the story of a Prodigal Son…
The story of the Woman of Samaria finds a striking parallel in a Buddha legend….
Among the Krishna legends is one which tells of two sorrowful women of the lowest caste, virtuous, indeed, but poor and despised, who, in spite of opposition and reproof, succeeded in reaching the presence of Krishna, and anointed his head with fragrant ointment…
Not only in a number of striking incidents is the connection between the legends of Buddha and Jesus demonstrated, but the similarity extends to the smallest particulars throughout the whole narrative. Situations, discourses, cures, advice, parables, figures of speech, even forms of expression, are so like as to imply copy and not coincidence….
Post-Ascension Discrepancies…
It is not and cannot now be known who wrote any of these [gospel] books; the Apostles are not historical characters to begin with, and they certainly were not the authors of the compilations which are called by their names, and which bear evidence of having been written at a much later period than the lifetime of persons contemporary with the supposed career of Jesus….
Myth, Forgery and Human Credulity
Not only the Gospels, but also the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles, were written long after the supposed occurrence of the events described….
But, it will be asked, how could such a fable obtain credence and become the foundation of a sect of believers so firm in the faith that they could endure persecution and welcome martyrdom in its defense?
To this it may be answered that, as history shows, there is no limit to human credulity; also, it is evident that the fable was of gradual growth…..
The Sacrament of the Eucharist
The Lord’s Supper…is the most binding ceremony of every Christian community. It is believed to have been instituted by Christ himself as an emblem of his broken body and shed blood, and is everywhere received by the faithful with reverent gratitude and solemn awe….
A wider survey reveals the fact that the sacrament of the Eucharist, as developed in the early church and handed down through the ages, is a repetition of similar ceremonies of earlier origin among ancient peoples, containing in each case the idea of death to sin and resurrection to righteousness through a celebration of the emblems of the awakening of nature to new life under the increasing force of the sun’s rays in spring. Bread and wine were the naturally-suggested emblems chosen for the rite.
The Greeks celebrated the mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus as bestowers and protectors of grain and grapes; the Aztecs partook with solemnity of a sacred perforated cake, and, most similar of all to the “Holy Communion” of the Christians, was the Haoma sacrifice of the Persians, a resemblance so striking as to draw from the early fathers of the church the complaint that the Devil had played a trick upon Christ in teaching the Parsis to caricature the Eucharist in their Soma sacrifice….
Christ Unknown to His Contemporaries
If such a man as the New Testament represents Jesus to have been had really lived and labored at the stated times and places there would have been some trace of his existence among the records of his contemporaries. An insignificant brawler could not have aroused the animosity of the Jewish Sanhedrin to the extent of demanding his crucifixion, and the illegal condemnation and execution of a celebrated teacher could not have taken place without protest from honorable citizens and without notice or comment in the history of the time. Yet in the whole range of Jewish and Pagan literature of that period there is not a word, not an allusion which applies to the person of Jesus or to the events which are said to have happened on his account….
Thus we have the formation of the fictitious character of Jesus Christ as the chief divinities of the ancient Egyptian, Indian, Greek, and Roman nations; the Logos of the early Greek philosophers, and the Ideal of contemporary scholars….
The legends of Krishna and Buddha furnished the material for the miraculous conception and birth of the Redeemer; the maxims of all the great reformers are combined in his moral code; the career of the Sun, which from the beginning has risen upon the evil and the good, is demonstrated in that otherwise inexplicable sacrifice upon the cross, with its impossible sequel of resurrection and ascension.
What Is There Left?
For a long time previous to the beginning of the Christian era there had been regular and frequent intercourse between Eastern nations and the Roman empire. The religion of Persia had established its altars in Rome, and the religion of Buddha…was represented in city and province by learned and cultivated priests whose influence was felt by high and low among the people. And Brahmans came also, with their wealth of legends, and especially their story of God Krishna, whose name suggested the Greek epithet for the Anointed One [Christos], while his benevolent deeds and wise teachings answered to the moral standards of the philosophers; in short, all forms of human attempts to discover the Unknowable were concentrated in this latest, and probably last, development of anthropomorphic religion….
Just as the Brahmans represented their god Krishna as a crucified man with a wreath of sunbeams around his head, just as the ancient Assyrians represented their sun god Baal as a man surrounded by an aureole, and with outstretched arms, thus forming a perfect cross, so the Romans reverenced a crucified incarnation of the god Sol, and many ancient Italian pictures of Jesus as a crucified Savior bear the inscription “Deo Soli,” which may mean “To the only God,” or “To the God Sol.”
It is possible that some obscure man, “some Jewish peasant with a genius for religions” (as many “liberal” Christians nowadays are fond of saying), sat for the portrait of the idealized and deified Jesus; but it is not likely, because if he had been so insignificant as not to be distinguishable by the history of that time he could not have challenged the revenge of the Jewish theocracy and the severity of the Roman imperial power; whereas, if he had been of so much importance as to create so great a ferment he would have been known to history….
And, when we take away from this Person (as must be taken away) his supernatural birth, his superhuman powers, his borrowed teachings, his unlawful execution, his impossible resurrection and ascension – what is there left? …
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The Christ Myth, a Study by Elizabeth Evans [1832 – 1911], New York: The Truth Seeker Company ( found via http://www.truthbeknown.com ). Elizabeth Edson Gibson Evans 1832-1911: Daughter of Dr. Willard Putnam Gibson and Lucia Field Williams. Married to Edward Payson Evans, 1868. Contributor to Atlantic Monthly, North American Review, Nation, etc. Author of 9 books, including: A History of Religions, 1892; The Christ Myth (her last book), 1900.
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About Dugutigui

In the “Diula” language in Mali, the term « dugutigui » (chief of the village), literally translated, means: «owner of the village»; «dugu» means village and «tigui», owner. Probably the term is the result of the contraction of «dugu kuntigui» (literally: chief of the village).
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63 Responses to the christ myth – (en)

  1. puzzleblume says:

    A rose is a rose is a rose, but for a lot of people a red rose is a symbol for a myth of romantic love as is has to be, and a myth is a myth and because most people are needy, longing, hungry for something, that cannot get lost if only their devotion was enough, they choose to believe in roses and thorns in any way.

    • Dugutigui says:

      You are right! But if a rose is there, you can only see it with your eyes open, and sure, if it isn’t there, you can see it just as well with your eyes closed. That’s why imaginary things are often easier to see than real ones….

      This post is aimed to people that are Christians by pure routine, by mere social arrangement, because they were born here or there, in a Christian country, a favourite nation of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate (this is no offense to rest of religions). People that are Christians because they are baptize, because they had the first communion, because they were confirmed the bishop (the little blow they tip them with their white hands, plump and ringed), because the priest married them (less and less, everyday) because they vote right, because they hear the episcopal station, because they divorced by the church (sorry, voided, I wanted to say ) and because they get the extreme rites by the hospital chaplain or the one from the daycare asylum where they die. Christians because, well, they are said their funeral mass because once confined into the coffin, they can not escape, finally, the mass. That’s it: a patterned and routine, bureaucratic and registered Christian.

      In short, people that never questioned their beliefs [and probably anything else in their life …]

  2. Dalo 2013 says:

    Excellent post. Faith is wonderful, but at some level “we” need to make sure we do not get stuck in a routine of faith (when logic lies elsewhere). For more than a decade I have been intrigued by the Church of the West vs. the Church of the East (how Western religions were derived from a philosophy and used to conquer and control Europe), and how such questions are routinely ignored. Love this post, as it creates questions and discussions…a good thing.

    • Dugutigui says:

      I think that faith should be about doing, how you act, not just how you believe. Religion is a different matter all together. One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion, and one would like to think—though the connection is not a fully demonstrable one—that this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell. Religion is only a cultural product born out the primal terror of the first humans, defenseless against a hostile and mysterious nature which they weren’t able to correctly understand. If it’s keep undisturbed, it is only because many live out of it. “Fear created the gods” sentenced some. For its part, psychoanalysts argue that “religion comes from an obsession neurosis related to hallucinatory psychosis.”

      And finally, my main concern, religion is control; an excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
      Tell a young child that they must not do something, and the inevitable response is ‘Why?’ In its infancy, human civilization was no different.
      Rulers ascended to positions of power, and created laws for all their people to follow. But why should they be obeyed? What makes their laws better than your own?
      It is possible to compel compliance with the laws through law enforcement alone. Set a few harsh examples, and the people will fall in line. But all this really accomplishes is to convince the people to be more careful in the breaking of the laws. And a lawless people will require so many resources to police that the ruler would never have the opportunity to conquer their neighbors and put them under his rule.
      Canny rulers realized this. The people needed to believe that the laws had to be obeyed, and that, regardless of secular authority, punishment in some form was inevitable. So many mysteries in life were attributed to the gods, and gaining the favor of the gods was a full-time pursuit. What better motivation for obedience than that the gods said so?
      Obey the laws or your crops will wither, your well will dry up, and your oxen will become diseased. Obey the laws, and your crops will be plentiful, your sons will be strong, and your daughters will marry well and bring a rich dowry. Such logic was simple and effective.

      And what now? In Western culture, religion has lost its validity as a legal basis for government. However, it does yet serve many individuals as a basis for personal morality and ethics. The moral and ethical systems are as diverse as the individuals who practice them, with influences of experience, environment, and interpretation added to the myriad varieties of available religions. And new religions appear all the time.
      In the 20th Century, we saw that when people within the same government are divided on a political issue, and that division coincides with a religious boundary, escalation of hostilities is the inevitable result. The rise of the labor union, a class conflict, saw scattered rioting. The battle for racial equality in the US saw isolated acts of brutality and murder. But the violence in these movements pale beside those which also fell along religious differences.
      The Northern Ireland conflict, for instance, is based on a political difference not unlike that of the peaceful difference between Quebecois separatists and their mostly English-descended unionist neighbors in Canada. The current Palestinian situation has been greatly exacerbated by religious disagreements, such as access to Mount Zion and the Temple on the Mount. And let us not forget that a prejudice in Germany, which divided the people religiously as well as racially, produced the Holocaust.
      Though most of the world’s governments have discarded religion as a basis for authority, violence associated with religious belief continues. But as humanism takes a greater hold on society, religious beliefs continue to splinter off in new directions. And the more personalized religious belief becomes, the more tolerating of religious differences we can become. When there aren’t enough members of a particular religion to dominate a political disagreement, peaceful demonstration and reasonable discussion become realistic options for resolution.
      Perhaps the next phase of our cultural evolution is the death of organized religion.

  3. Aliosa says:

    Thank you for like !

    Regards,
    Aliosa.

  4. ane says:

    Christianity played a major role in the positive development of human consciousness. I think any discovery made not clarify things.

  5. sknicholls says:

    As per my most recent post, Jesus was a kind, generous, individual who was miraculously gifted, and deeply disturbed. The Old Testament in the Bible was written for one people…the Jews. I am convinced there is another planet out there with my relatives on it. Not sure if I am qualified to speak on faith. “Faith means not want to know the truth.” ~Nietzsche

  6. Eric Alagan says:

    What an interesting and challenging post – love it🙂

  7. Malin H says:

    “Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” (Napoleon Bonaparte)

    • Dugutigui says:

      He was absolutely right!
      As stated above, as well as Napoleon Bonaparte, it also appears that certain of the American Founding Fathers, including Washington, Jefferson, and Paine, were familiar with the theory that Jesus was originally a mythical/allegorical figure and not a historical person. Some of them evidently held this view, at least at certain times.

    • George Valah says:

      “God fights on the side with the best artillery.” Napoleon
      “Religious” too 😉

      • Dugutigui says:

        Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”― Napoleon Bonaparte

        Intelligent, more than religious, I believe🙂

  8. George Valah says:

    “Doubt, doubt with all your power and arguments about God and after nothing else is left, you discover God” (Ramakrishna)
    Truth on one side, false – on the other side, that’s easy to argue. When both are mixed and entangled together, it takes a great effort to spread them apart, moreover before to start a properly argumentation.
    If “Adonis, Hercules, Bacchus, among the Greeks,” – false, ” Adonis, Herakles, Dio -Nyssus among Greeks” -true (Hercules, Bacchus -in “roman” mythology) can cast doubt on the entire substance of the article? Of course not, just a slip of mind, or keyboard, or…both!
    Maya – Prince Siddhartha’s mother (the future “Buddha” (buddhi=”intellect” skrt) “was never a virgin at the time of giving birth”, at least not in the original mythology. Is this another mistake that can cast doubt on the whole article? Well… not yet, just details, some dust over the big rocks!
    OK, let’s go to the “big issue”: is Christ existence real and everything else as much real as is written in the text books? “IS RELIGION” the true path to find the last supreme truth, God Himself, in a Heavenly Kingdom? And “what” is “that”, what is “beatitude” (“ananda”-skrt) ?
    Even if I have “my own” answers, I will not give any, for the reason of free awareness, as it can be under the limitations of individual “data base” and interpretation. Instead I will rise more questions, over “the legend”, probably real facts about “what happened then”…
    1. Jesus was not “a Hebrew”, for sure genetically not. He was “from the House of David”, but from Bathsheba’s first marriage with Uriah the Hittite, her biological son Solomon, a Hittite as his parents, a branch of “Dacs” population. . The Hebrews knew that history very well and that why it was so easy for them to choose Barabbas (a Hebrew) over Jesus (a Hittite) to be saved from crucifixion!
    (http://nethelper.com/article/David_%28biblical-_king%29)
    2. When Jesus said “I am the way”, I don’t think it was other reference but to his teachings and way of life or “behavior”. “All other facts, real or not, are not related to the purpose, but only meanings to attract to the purpose”. That include: miracles, crucifixion, etc.
    3. Of course Jesus was “human” in his body, otherwise the statement “I won, so you can win too” will be entirely false! (It suppose to be “equal conditions” for all, to rich the same target). Never the less he was “The Son of God” for his “perfection” in all he said and accomplished during his presence among us. Probably each of us can think or give few answers like him, but “not all 100%” accuracy as he did!
    4. When we talk about “Christianity” – as Jesus followers, and “religion” – a multipurpose institution, doesn’t necessary means the same thing. I will not elaborate, it’s common sense.
    5. The parallel between “Buddhism” Hinduism (Bhagavad Gita) and Christianity is entirely false in essence The purpose can be the same in almost all religions but “the way” is very different.
    Buddhism is founded on 4 principles or roots for unhappiness, which the first one is “ignorance”, and the way or “dharma” is “to become enlightened” (wisdom). Christianity is based on “forgiveness and love”,. There is “a lot” to talk about this two concepts, what “exactly” include and not. Definitely I’m not a priest, or I do not own any credentials in these aspects. I only relate some facts.
    6. Osiris, (Amon Ra) the Sun, etc, “resurrection” (the first known one was … “the Phoenix” – Greek myth.), yes, it is a “old humanity’s dream” . Therefore it can be found in many old cultural traditions. Who can think they “borrow it from one to another”? Funny… But the more you get to the top, the less roads to climb up are left. Similarities ? May be… Borrowing? Doubt about this…
    Jesus, on his birth name Emmanuel – (The Dac’s deity “Manu” – “borrowed” later on, to the Indian tradition (and not vice versa) after Dacs conquered them thousands of years before Alexander the Great) was the only one to succeed in doing so, in his own “original body”. How we know it? Let’s find out “who” deny it: nobody “on his time”!? Of course, “today” there are others to think otherwise… Is their right and freedom. And limitation?
    “There are no documents to confirm Jesus existence” (!) Jesus was not a prince like Buddha (He was a King, but that just sent him to crucifixion!) nor like Arjuna or Krishna (Bhagavad Gita), and the spiritual traditions of that time was “the teachings are given directly from spiritual master to disciples through live speech”, not “in writings”. And “who” could dare on that very times, “to write” the teachings of the “renegade, crucified Jesus”, risking its own life ? The “historians” of the time? The “imperial court intellectuals”? Hebrew’s priests who that just asked for his death?
    Maybe “a photo” can prove his existence better? If that will help, I will provide one…
    “And, when we take away from this Person (as must be taken away) his supernatural birth, his superhuman powers, his borrowed teachings, his unlawful execution, his impossible resurrection and ascension – what is there left? …”
    Well “my dear Elizabeth Evans ” there is nothing to be taken away when nothing was known to be “attached” to a person or Person itself. Your article, as well as mine or anybody else, is just a projection of our understandings and misunderstandings. It only depends which ones prevail the most.
    I apologize for a long comment… The original article was even longer, for excuse.
    All my appreciation for the host of this blog🙂

    • Dugutigui says:

      Thank you very much for your extensive and reasoned response.
      In my case, the only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed, it is an attitude, a frame of mind that looks at the world objectively, fearlessly, always trying to understand all things as a part of nature. I also believe human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it. On other hand, I suppose that one reason I have always detested religion is its sly tendency to insinuate the idea that the universe is designed with ‘you’ in mind or, even worse, that there is a divine plan into which one fits whether one knows it or not. This kind of modesty is too arrogant for me. In any case, I don’t have to agree with you to like you or respect you.
      Thanks again!

    • Dugutigui says:

      That in the event that time is real ….🙂
      One finds that time has disappeared from the Wheeler-DeWitt equation, a topic in which many theorists have puzzled about. But it may be that the best way to think about quantum reality is to give up the notion of time, that the fundamental description of the universe must be timeless…

      • George Valah says:

        Of course… Pictures taken from chronovisor are not “time pictures” but “event pictures”. Even if time doesn’t xxt, our ” natural reader device” can only do the job “reading one by one events in a sequential order”. Mind do the rest: creating the “cause and effect” law.
        And even so, there are an infinite number of timelines variants fulfilled everyone of them in parallel existences. What we can really do is to make our awareness to live in a better option from a possible Gauss Bell distribution of such possibilities… The “catch” is: each option is associated to a certain fequency vibration and we resonate (live) according to that one. We change our “frecquency” -> we change our destiny. (timeline). The “device” to operate: our toughts – of course, the “dominanta” or “resultant vector”. But “toughts” are the result of our actions, behaviour, cultural beliefs, beliefs/faith … 🙂

      • Dugutigui says:

        The alleged existence (much less the functionality) of the chronovisor has fueled a whole series of conspiracy theories, and never been confirmed. However, even in the case all assertions you propose proof one day being real, the real question, for me, isn’t whether or not they exists, but even if they do what problem this really solves.

  9. George Valah says:

    Nec plus ultra. The rest is silence… 😀

    • Dugutigui says:

      I think I let practical considerations clutter my youthful dreams… As a person that never really receives encouragement I learn to move out of spite; and in a way I become more independent. I understand many things we do we don’t do them because they are useful but because they are amusing. I understand also the most useless investigation may prove to have the most startling practical importance: Wireless telegraphy might not yet have come if Clerk Maxwell had been drawn away from his obviously ‘useless’ equations to do something of more practical importance. Large branches of chemistry would have remained obscure had Willard Gibbs not spent his time at mathematical calculations which only about two men of his generation could understand. With this faith in the ultimate usefulness of all real knowledge a man may proceed to devote himself to a study of first causes without apology, and without hope of immediate return. Dreams, always has hope cheering it on. The only problem with my dreams is the practical side, otherwise it is perfect.🙂

  10. George Valah says:

    Once things are put in place, nothing else can be done. It’s upon us to make a good use of them, or to discard…
    I am not in charge to plea for any cause. Because there is none. We just share, from the little we have, some seeds for…
    Well, “they” deleted the original full 1:27 clip, but this probably is the same:

    • George Valah says:

      At last I did find a good one! 🙂

      • Dugutigui says:

        Teleportation might explain various allegedly paranormal phenomena, although it is difficult to say whether it is a serious theory or instead used it to point out what it’s saw as the inadequacy of mainstream science to account for strange phenomena.🙂
        Interesting video in any case!
        Thanks for sharing!

    • Dugutigui says:

      In this point “I am not in charge to plea for any cause. Because there is none. We just share” we’re kindled spirits🙂 What’s all this love of arguing? No one ever convinces anyone else, much less convincing someone of an unfamiliar truth.🙂

  11. geelw says:

    Excellent post. From some other dimension, the church offers up its musical response:

    • Dugutigui says:

      First time I hear of Skafish. Funny punk! On still other perspective The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music🙂
      Thanks for sharing!

  12. Kev says:

    I have a problem with a lot of the stories found in the bible…the most absurd for me is the tower of babel…and the reason why we have different languages….it’s just insane. We explore space for crying out loud and no-one is worried about us becoming as gods. lol

    • Dugutigui says:

      As you may know already I’m not an authority in the Bible, much less in religions. The only thing I could say is believers must remember this when they are ready to reach for the sky. God came down and confused man’s language and scattered them🙂
      Thank you very much for your comment!!

  13. When I was a freshman at Texas A&M University in 1973, I got together with all sorts of people of various religions from my dorm and we went to a different church each Sunday. That certainly opened my eyes but it still took me about 20 years before I realized just how unrealistic a story the many religions rely on. Faith? I have faith that after all the good I’ve done via Key Club, Alpha Phi Omega, Red Cross, Muscular Dystrophy Association, American Cancer Society, etc., if God takes the murderer and rapist over me because, on his death bed, he “accepted” Christ as his Lord and Savior, well, that’s a God that I don’t want to be associated with.

    • Dugutigui says:

      You’re right, human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it. Many keep on believing that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.🙂 It is time to withdraw our respect from such fantastic claims, all of them aimed at the exertion of power over other humans in the real and material world.
      Thanks for the comment!

  14. dr. e says:

    “Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.”

    Joseph Campbell

    Source: http://herojourneys.com/follow-your-bliss-a-collection-of-joseph-campbell-quotes/

    Thanks for taking the time to read my post about Pete Seeger.
    ( http://dadokta.wordpress.com/category/pete-seeger/ )
    I am glad you liked it. Meandering around your blog I have the reaction that the few who visit mine seem to have: WTF? (I mean this as a compliment. Obviousness is both boring and unenlightening IMHO).

    • Dugutigui says:

      I think the main difference hangs on while believers expect something —they think that god has arranged matters all wrong, but also think that they can instruct god how to put them right—, non believers expect nothing, so they won’t be disappointed🙂🙂
      I always liked Pete Seeger, his banjo surrounded hate and forced it to surrender.
      Thanks for the comment!

  15. beebeesworld says:

    I admire you for approaching this subject. I was raised to be a protestant, made to go to church all the time, dropped out a few years and went back when my life kept falling apart. I convinced myself God had a plan for me-to use all my miserable times to help others, i took my family to church, I honestly believed God had vowed to keep my children safe and me healthy to do this job. When my son died while laying baseball he did not ant to play and the 911 call went to the wrong place (a fire dept was in sight of the field0 , a nurse didnt know how to do the modern chest only CPR and the ambulance got there to late to save my son, my ‘faith” took a dive. When I lost my health because I lost my son, it seems the rest of my family somehow became more religious. I guess we all, from every culture want to believe their is something bigger and more knowledgeable than we are. There is also the guilt factor-how we will go to hell if we don’t believe whatever it is the one trying to convert us is preaching. This has become a huge factor in my familiy since the loss of my son. Are they afraid it will happen to the to because it happened to their brother and mom? I try to pray and can’t get past, “How could you let my son die, let me down like this if you had a job for me to do? You forgive murderers and let babies die? I guess we just can;t compare religion and science. A lot of people seem to need it. Did you notice that very very “religious” people commented on your article? makes you wonder. I like to believe in Jesus-the ideas of equality, forgiveness and such. And of a spirit ho helps us and holds us. Even of a God who I will always end up asking, “Why?” “How could you”..to hear someone write down the idealogies of all faiths was very interesting. I am going to keep it. beebesworld

    • Dugutigui says:

      I think everybody should live a good life.
      If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
      In my case, I am not even an atheist so much as an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful.
      Thanks for your touching comment!

  16. bafriyie says:

    Not enough people question their religion, its doctrine and its creed. The thing is, if you were exposed to a religion from infancy, you’re likely to hold it as true. Sometimes the only difference between a Muslim and a Christian is that one was born in Canada and the other in the Middle East. Thanks for raising the awareness. I’m not saying, and neither are you, that people should reject religion all together. People should be conscious of what they choose to believe in.

    • Dugutigui says:

      Completely agree with your reasoning. In my case, I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason🙂🙂

      • bafriyie says:

        I was raised Roman Catholic as well, but as for what I am now I have no clue. However, I’d rather be unsure than in the dark. There are some teachings, mentalities and approaches in Catholicism that I cannot agree with, especially if I claim to value human life. It may seem weird for to me to say that Catholicism and human worth are incompatible, but in many instances they are.

        Anyways, that’s another blog post on its own. I really enjoyed your post. I wish more people could examine their faith and beliefs from a detached point of view. Keeo it up!

      • Dugutigui says:

        About once or twice every month I engage in debates with those whose pressing need it is to woo and to win the approval of supernatural beings. Very often, when I give my view that there is no supernatural dimension, and certainly not one that is only or especially available to the faithful, and that the natural world is wonderful enough—and even miraculous enough if you insist—I attract pitying looks and anxious questions. How, in that case, I am asked, do I find meaning and purpose in life? How does a mere and gross materialist, with no expectation of a life to come, decide what, if anything, is worth caring about?

        Depending on my mood, I sometimes but not always refrain from pointing out what a breathtakingly insulting and patronizing question this is. (It is on a par with the equally subtle inquiry: Since you don’t believe in our god, what stops you from stealing and lying and raping and killing to your heart’s content?) Just as the answer to the latter question is: self-respect and the desire for the respect of others—while in the meantime it is precisely those who think they have divine permission who are truly capable of any atrocity—so the answer to the first question falls into two parts. A life that partakes even a little of friendship, love, irony, humor, parenthood, literature, and music, and the chance to take part in battles for the liberation of others cannot be called ‘meaningless’ except if the person living it is also an existentialist and elects to call it so. It could be that all existence is a pointless joke, but it is not in fact possible to live one’s everyday life as if this were so. Whereas if one sought to define meaninglessness and futility, the idea that a human life should be expended in the guilty, fearful, self-obsessed propitiation of supernatural nonentities… but there, there. Enough.

      • bafriyie says:

        If your only life’s purpose is making it to heaven, then I’m sorry, that’s a poor life. If the only thing stopping you from raping, murdering, cheating and stealing is religion, then your a poor person. If your religion can be used to justify rape (it’s God’s will), murder (God is calling him or her to heaven) or inhumane behaviour (turn the other cheek) then that’s a poor religion.

      • Dugutigui says:

        How could I disagree with that? Anyone who thinks sitting in church can make you a good person must also think that sitting in a garage can make you a car🙂

      • geelw says:


        The movies have a complaint about you now, sir. Their answer is a doozy.😀

      • Dugutigui says:

        It’s not much of a tail, but I’m sort of attached to it🙂

  17. Fascinating post and by all of the comments a thought provoking one as well.

    • Dugutigui says:

      Thank you on behalf of the author. No less fascinating how provocative it should have been at the time of its publication, in 1900.
      Thank you very much for your comment.

  18. leewriter says:

    That was a fascinating and thought-provoking post — I grew up being a Christian but never was totally sold on the Jesus/Son of God came to Earth and died for our sins. It sounds nice but my opinion is that God isn’t floating around in a celestial realm looking down on His/Her/Its creation. I believe that the Big Bang was God literally exploding from Potential Life into Actual Life. I believe God is everywhere at the same time because the entire universe is made of up Energy, which Eckhart Tolle calls the One Life. Tolle also noted that religion (versus spirituality) is the most harmful phenomena in the history of the world. Religion divides, spirituality unites. Enough said. Oh BTW, I wrote a book “Overcome Any Personal Obstacle, Including Alcoholism, By Understanding Your Ego”, after reading a couple of Tolle’s books. He is my favorite nonfiction author.

    • Dugutigui says:

      Thanks for your reflections. Myself I draw a line. On the one hand the concept of a higher being -something that tells me nothing, and therefore I’m not interested. On the other religion, that bothers me by its total lack of the most minimally sustainable basis, as an insult to intelligence.

      For example Christianity. Let’s say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I’ll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.

      Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks ‘That’s enough of that. It’s time to intervene,’ and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East. Don’t lets appeal to the Chinese, for example, where people can read and study evidence and have a civilization. Let’s go to the desert and have another revelation there. This is nonsense. It can’t be believed by a thinking person.

      And all religions are cut from the same cloth.

  19. New book on the Jesus mythhttp://www.freepublicitygroup.com/release_sid_martin_author_jesus_myth_.html

    • Dugutigui says:

      I’ve been a little busy lately and I’m sorry for the delay in answering.
      The moment God is figured out with nice neat lines and definitions, we are no longer dealing with God. Thanks for your comment. This book is in my list.

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